EVO lover who likes Apple?

[Caitlyn McKenzie]

This obviously isn't going to go anywhere. You're not even throwing out anything to rebuke except your own anecdotal experience and opinions. You think you're right, I know I'm right, and some mod will just come in and clean up the mess. So let's just skip all that and agree to disagree.

 

[GadgetGator]

This obviously isn't going to go anywhere. You're not even throwing out anything to rebuke except your own anecdotal experience and opinions.

But isn't that what you are doing? Going by your own opinions??? The difference is, you are trying to tell people happy with their purchases that they are wrong and that the things that work for them don't. LOL Good luck with that strategy.

Whereas I am not trying to convince you an iPad (or anything else for that matter) is good for you. So there's nothing to disagree on. I just don't think you should be telling everyone else that they shouldn't use what works for them. Said it before and I will say it this one last time...what skin is it off your nose if someone is happy with something? You seem to take it rather personally for some strange reason. I don't like McDonalds for instance, but hey, if people want to eat there, doesn't matter to me. If it makes them happy, go for it.

So let's just skip all that and agree to disagree.

Now THAT'S something we can agree on.

 

[DevilInPgh]

MacBook, 32GB 3g iPod Touch, and EVO. However, once doubleTwist finally allows podcast subscriptions and syncing to the EVO from a Mac, I'm selling the iPod Touch to buy a 16 GB microSD card (the whole duplication of products thing). How many others are considering the same thing?

 

[Caitlyn McKenzie]

Whereas I am not trying to convince you an iPad (or anything else for that matter) is good for you. So there's nothing to disagree on. I just don't think you should be telling everyone else that they shouldn't use what works for them. Said it before and I will say it this one last time...what skin is it off your nose if someone is happy with something? You seem to take it rather personally for some strange reason. I don't like McDonalds for instance, but hey, if people want to eat there, doesn't matter to me. If it makes them happy, go for it.

There's plenty of reasons for people to take it personally, even though I haven't been directly impacted by it... yet. Developers especially, but developers are just the first. If this keeps up, it's going to have a negative effect on everyone.

Apple's mobile division as a whole is causing some sweeping changes in mobile development, and unlike early versions of the iPhone, none of it is for the better.

I'll go through the list:

1. HTML5 video/audio. Apple praises this technology, as if it will bring the death of Flash and make the web the Best Thing Ever (tm). However, they completely ignore what developers have to put up with to implement this:

For video, you have H264, OGG/OGM, and WebM. Apple ONLY supports H264. Firefox supports OGG/OGM and WebM. Chrome supports H264 and WebM. Notice a problem there? Yeah, none of them support the same format across the board. So much for standards.

For audio, same thing applies. There are three choices, every browser supports a different pair of them: MP3, OGG/WebM, WAV.

Apple wants to force everyone to use THEIR format only, H264, despite what problems it causes for developers, and the looming impact of licensing fees.

And I'll just throw in this on Flash:

Flash is actually FASTER than HTML5 video. It's more efficient, better supported, plays more formats, and is already adopted by tons of websites. In fact, with the recently added GPU acceleration, it makes HTML5 video look like a JOKE. But Apple would have you believe Flash is the devil. And with their marketshare, they are having a big impact on major websites, causing the rest of us to be screwed over.

2. Application development. Apple continues to make their app store a more hazardous place to develop. Developers have almost no idea if their application is going to be accepted before they submit it. You can't ask Apple for advice while in development, they insist you send them the finished application for submission, and that's when they'll tell you it's wrong. So you'll spend 6 months and lots of investment on an application only to be told "sorry, we don't like that".

It's even worse with the latest version of iOS's license. Now developers are beginning to be restricted on WHAT they develop with. Apple only wants you developing with Apple-approved software despite the fact that in the end it makes NO DIFFERENCE to Apple or the users of the app. It's not like it introduces insecurities or bugs. They just don't want companies like Adobe and PhoneGap poking into their business.

This is having a direct impact on the apps you're going to see on it. And is a major reason as to why more developers are moving to Android, and abandoning the iPad. The iPad (and even iPhone4 with its higher resolution display) costs more to develop for, yet applications fail to succeed if they charge more.



I think that's good enough basis for now, without delving into the whole iPad fiasco again.

 

[DevilInPgh]

Vincent, did you listen to this week's podcast yet? Search the Market for "puzzle". You'll be tittilated! Seriously, there needs to be a ratings system and filter for the Market, much like there is for the iTunes App Store. You can't deny that that is a feather in Apple's cap. Yeah, I liked the whole "Android phone is for porn" thing, but there is such a thing as too open, just as there is with too closed.

 

[Caitlyn McKenzie]

Vincent, did you listen to this week's podcast yet? Search the Market for "puzzle". You'll be tittilated! Seriously, there needs to be a ratings system and filter for the Market, much like there is for the iTunes App Store. You can't deny that that is a feather in Apple's cap. Yeah, I liked the whole "Android phone is for porn" thing, but there is such a thing as too open, just as there is with too closed.

I'm not listening to the podcast.

What does the lack of a filter have to do with Apple's draconian application acceptance system? By your own admittance, iTunes has crap that needs filtering.

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

Vincent, did you listen to this week's podcast yet? Search the Market for "puzzle". You'll be tittilated! Seriously, there needs to be a ratings system and filter for the Market, much like there is for the iTunes App Store. You can't deny that that is a feather in Apple's cap. Yeah, I liked the whole "Android phone is for porn" thing, but there is such a thing as too open, just as there is with too closed.

I'm not listening to the podcast.

What does the lack of a filter have to do with Apple's draconian application acceptance system? By your own admittance, iTunes has crap that needs filtering.

I agree with both (and your above post Vincent about Apple's policies hurting devs, even though I'm not one). I do wish that there was a better method for organizing the market. I did the search for puzzle and get what you mean. I don't know how to fix it, or think it needs to be filtered, but maybe better organized (like more sub categories) and a better rating system than stars. Why can't we have a 1-10 rating scale? Would that be so difficult?

I know that I have looked for specific apps and unless I knew the full name I couldn't find it. There were just too many for me to look through because it had a very commonly used word in the title. I can't remember the specific app, but it was a pain. I ended up finding a QR for it somewhere (which helps immensely for getting apps).

No company has a perfect way to organize or host an app market, but so far I prefer Google's way over Apple's way. I'll take too open (if there is such a thing) over too closed any day.

EDIT: I do understand that "too open" could be taken wrong, but let's use some common sense. I'm not saying Google should let just any app in the app store. I like their model so far. I don't want a bunch of apps that are gonna steal data and harm my phone just like the next guy doesn't, either. I know they need to have a process in place for this, and they do.

 

[GadgetGator]

For video, you have H264, OGG/OGM, and WebM. Apple ONLY supports H264. Firefox supports OGG/OGM and WebM. Chrome supports H264 and WebM. Notice a problem there? Yeah, none of them support the same format across the board. So much for standards.

Okay. You've established that different companies lean towards different formats. I would add in Microsoft which wants you to use Windows Media format. So the question then becomes, why are you laying this issue solely at Apple's feet? Shouldn't your wrath be directed at...oh I dunno...everyone??

And I'll just throw in this on Flash:

Flash is actually FASTER than HTML5 video. It's more efficient, better supported, plays more formats, and is already adopted by tons of websites. In fact, with the recently added GPU acceleration, it makes HTML5 video look like a JOKE. But Apple would have you believe Flash is the devil.

Flash IS the devil. If it were written decently browsers wouldn't need "this script is causing the computer to run slowly" kind of messages.

2. Application development. Apple continues to make their app store a more hazardous place to develop. Developers have almost no idea if their application is going to be accepted before they submit it. You can't ask Apple for advice while in development, they insist you send them the finished application for submission, and that's when they'll tell you it's wrong. So you'll spend 6 months and lots of investment on an application only to be told "sorry, we don't like that".

Absolutely agree with you on that. (Hooray...we can actually agree on something). That being said, a lot of times the rejections involve published things to avoid that a developer did anyway. Most apps get approved. So I don't see this to be as big an issue as you do.

This is having a direct impact on the apps you're going to see on it. And is a major reason as to why more developers are moving to Android, and abandoning the iPad. The iPad (and even iPhone4 with its higher resolution display) costs more to develop for, yet applications fail to succeed if they charge more.

So you kind of undid what you said earlier. First you said that Apple's policies will have a negative effect on you in the future because of what developers are going through. Then you say that the developers are moving to Android. Well, since you don't use or like an iPad, problem solved then.

I think most developers will write for both Apple and Android too now that the Android platform is maturing a bit. That's a win/win for everyone. But the Android Marketplace is a bit of a mess. They need a way of promoting apps better. That is the one thing that Apple does better. I know a lot of people hate the desktop version of iTunes, but it does a better job of promoting apps, then things like Appbrain or something on your phone. Also, if a developer is lucky enough to get into one of Apple's TV spots, everyone wants to know what app that was and sales go up tremendously. Google has no equivalent TV exposure for apps. They need to address this issue in order for developers to have the same kind of exposure and success.

 

[Caitlyn McKenzie]

Okay. You've established that different companies lean towards different formats. I would add in Microsoft which wants you to use Windows Media format. So the question then becomes, why are you laying this issue solely at Apple's feet? Shouldn't your wrath be directed at...oh I dunno...everyone??

You would add it, and you would be wrong. Microsoft would certainly like you to, but they don't FORCE you to.

Flash IS the devil. If it were written decently browsers wouldn't need "this script is causing the computer to run slowly" kind of messages.

You do realize that message is triggered by Javascript, not Flash, right? You know, the sort of thing Apple wants you to use in combination with HTML5? The kind of thing that has terrible performance? Whoops!

Flash has come a long way from its slow, buggy Flash 8/9 platform. Flash 10.1 was rebuilt from the ground up to compete, and it trounces everything else. You know what doesn't crash anymore? Flash. You know what does? HTML5 video. I can't tell you how many times Chrome's crashed on YouTube in the HTML5 beta, and I can't tell you how many times Safari stopped loading video halfway through for no reason. And half the time you can't even skip beyond where it's loaded. Yeah, that's progress. *rolleyes*

So you kind of undid what you said earlier. First you said that Apple's policies will have a negative effect on you in the future because of what developers are going through. Then you say that the developers are moving to Android. Well, since you don't use or like an iPad, problem solved then.

Because not all developers can afford to switch.

I think most developers will write for both Apple and Android too now that the Android platform is maturing a bit. That's a win/win for everyone.

Not for smaller developers. Android and iOS development are significantly different enough that many have to pick and choose. On the one hand, you have a smaller market, Android. On the other, you're taking a gamble on your investment with iOS.

But the Android Marketplace is a bit of a mess. They need a way of promoting apps better. That is the one thing that Apple does better. I know a lot of people hate the desktop version of iTunes, but it does a better job of promoting apps, then things like Appbrain or something on your phone. Also, if a developer is lucky enough to get into one of Apple's TV spots, everyone wants to know what app that was and sales go up tremendously. Google has no equivalent TV exposure for apps. They need to address this issue in order for developers to have the same kind of exposure and success.

They're both a mess. Android does have a poor market system, but Apple has a compounded issue in that, yes, you have to use iTunes, and you have way more crap applications to wade through. Filtering/promoting isn't a nice feature there, it's a requirement.

 

[Buckeyes]

Damn. I started this thread with the idea that there would be a nice back and forth about the two companies and the products they offer. There is obviously a very passionate feelings between the two. I think they both make great products that appeal to different clients. Game on..........

 

[Yourdogsdead]

Damn. I started this thread with the idea that there would be a nice back and forth about the two companies and the products they offer. There is obviously a very passionate feelings between the two. I think they both make great products that appeal to different clients. Game on..........

That was a very bad assumption . Have you ever seen the comments on Apple and Android articles on Engadget or Gizmodo? I learned a lot of new vocabulary from those fights.

 

[Jerry Hildenbrand]

Just waiting for someone to cross the line so I can close this thread without regret

It's obvious that nobody is going to change anyone else's mind, yet some people keep trying.

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

Just waiting for someone to cross the line so I can close this thread without regret

It's obvious that nobody is going to change anyone else's mind, yet some people keep trying.

It's entertaining. If this were anything other than these forums I think the line woulda been crossed a long time ago.

This is actually one of the first threads I look for when I come back to the forums.

 

[Caitlyn McKenzie]

Just waiting for someone to cross the line so I can close this thread without regret

It's obvious that nobody is going to change anyone else's mind, yet some people keep trying.

I'll stop posting before it'd ever become a flame war. I don't have any interest in throwing insults around. I have other avenues for that

 

[JayCudi]

I've been an iPod owner since 2005 (with the ipod video/classic to most recently the iPod Touch 3G) and I can never imagine using a different mp3 player


After having a iPod Touch and a EVO, I find no reason to own an iPhone. No disrespect to those that own an iPhone, but I believe its pointless to have one when an iPod Touch does exist and can pretty much operate the same functions excluding calling, messaging and having a camera

I do wish to own a MacBook, but I cannot ever justify spending $1,000 for a laptop that has similar specs on a $500 laptop

Could care less about an iPad

 

[GadgetGator]

You would add it, and you would be wrong. Microsoft would certainly like you to, but they don't FORCE you to.

Okay, then the end users do. Because if users record their videos in a format that you can't play, same result. Can't begin to tell you how many times I have run up against that issue with Windows files. But you and I are in agreement here, we both think things should be open. So not sure where all this contrariness is coming from.

You do realize that message is triggered by Javascript, not Flash, right? You know, the sort of thing Apple wants you to use in combination with HTML5? The kind of thing that has terrible performance? Whoops!

I know that the messages I get are directly related to the Flash games I have running. No games running, no message.

Flash has come a long way from its slow, buggy Flash 8/9 platform. Flash 10.1 was rebuilt from the ground up to compete, and it trounces everything else. You know what doesn't crash anymore? Flash.

I agree it has come a long long ways. But I cannot agree that Flash does not crash anymore. I have seen it crash in Chrome, in Firefox and in Safari. On multiple computers. Recently.

Not for smaller developers. Android and iOS development are significantly different enough that many have to pick and choose.

I don't think they will have such a luxury in the future. I think it will pretty much be a requirement to be on both platforms. I ultimately seeing things being roughly 50/50 between Android and Apple. So, in order to get full revenue, you'll have to be on both platforms otherwise you will be limiting yourself. Will it take a little more time and investment? Sure. But that's what developers do and have always done. There have always been multiple platforms. Games, computer, phones...everything. You wouldn't want everyone to have only one choice in platforms would you? Actually, maybe you would. But what if it was the one you didn't choose?

 

[Caitlyn McKenzie]

I know that the messages I get are directly related to the Flash games I have running. No games running, no message.

Then state an error that actually correlates. The one you stated is not an error generated from Flash running.

I agree it has come a long long ways. But I cannot agree that Flash does not crash anymore. I have seen it crash in Chrome, in Firefox and in Safari. On multiple computers. Recently.

I could go so many different angles with this:

1. Anecdotal.
2. Alternatives are worse (Quicktime? HTML5 video/audio?)
3. The alternatives are lacking. Seriously, you mention playing those games, but I don't see many games running on Javascript and CSS. You claim Flash is slow and crashes, but there's no reason to believe HTML-based ones wouldn't be just as bad, if not worse.

I don't think they will have such a luxury in the future. I think it will pretty much be a requirement to be on both platforms. I ultimately seeing things being roughly 50/50 between Android and Apple. So, in order to get full revenue, you'll have to be on both platforms otherwise you will be limiting yourself. Will it take a little more time and investment? Sure. But that's what developers do and have always done. There have always been multiple platforms. Games, computer, phones...everything. You wouldn't want everyone to have only one choice in platforms would you? Actually, maybe you would. But what if it was the one you didn't choose?

We don't have to play the theoretical game here. There's already evidence of what happens in such a market: the console gaming systems.

Take the PS3 and X-Box 360, for example. The PS3 is somewhat more powerful, yet much more difficult to program for. The X-Box 360 is extremely easy to develop for, but not as powerful.

Big time developers even question developing a game for both platforms due to the difficulty and time investment. Smaller developers rarely choose to do so, and when they do, it's only after the success of a release on one console.

The two devices are different enough that you can't simply copy code from one to the other.

This is comparable with Android and iOS, where one (Android) runs Java, and the other runs Objective C. These two are far and away different languages, so it's not a "little" bit more time or investment to move one to the other.

 

[potheadhero]

In regards to the topic, I have a Nexus One, iPhone 4, iMac, and iPad. I also have an
Evo on the way. I love android as much as I love apple. Couldn't live without either one. So there is a middle ground for some people.

 

[GadgetGator]

I could go so many different angles with this:

1. Anecdotal.

Love that. Why is only anecdotal when ANOTHER person says it and not when YOU say things like "You know what doesn't crash anymore? Flash." And really, unless we are linking back to research studies everything everyone says here on any topic is anecdotal in nature.

The two devices are different enough that you can't simply copy code from one to the other.

This is comparable with Android and iOS, where one (Android) runs Java, and the other runs Objective C. These two are far and away different languages, so it's not a "little" bit more time or investment to move one to the other.

So you didn't answer my question. Would you prefer just one platform for everything? And if so, what if "the one" was the one you didn't like?

 

[dwaynewilliams#WN]

If I were with at&t, I would have the iPhone. It is the best device that the carrier dell. But I prefer Sprint and it is the best device that Sprint sells. Both phones are amazing. If I had to choose between the two, it would be really tough. The iPhone is a great product, but so is the EVO.