HTC One (M8) camera discussion

It's simply not true. Assuming that the resolution is sufficient for what you need, the physically larger pixels will out perform the smaller ones. I mean, c'mon people this isn't even in question! As the pixel size decreases, noise and low light performance increases.
This is from wikipedia:
"Larger pixel sizes can capture more light which has the advantage of allowing more light to be captured before over saturation of the photodiode. Additionally, less noise is generated by adjacent pixels and their emf fields with larger photodiodes or greater spacing between photodiodes. For a given number of pixels, the larger sensor allows for larger pixels or photosites that provide wider dynamic range and lower noise at high ISO levels."

I think the HTC engineers had a pretty good idea about what they are doing.

In theory, yes this is correct. In practice (on the m7, and to a lesser degree the m8) this is far from the truth. Why?

Because we are not dealing with raw images. We are dealing with jpegs, so software is involved and has a huge effect on dynamic range.

I hope this cleared up the confusion as to why the m8 has dynamic range issues in contrasty lighting regardless that it has huge pixels.

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Re: To everyone who is bashing the M8 camera, I have a couple of points to make.

I'm theory, yes this is correct. In practice (on the m7, and to a lesser degree the m8) this is far from the truth. Why?

Because we are not dealing with raw images. We are dealing with jpegs, so software is involved and has a huge effect on dynamic range.

I hope this cleared up the confusion as to why the m8 has dynamic range issues in contrasty lighting regardless that it has huge pixels.

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Of course compression algorithms will have an effect on dynamic range but I'm not aware of a camera phone that will SAVE the RAW images.
 
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Re: To everyone who is bashing the M8 camera, I have a couple of points to make.

First off, if it's on Wikipeda, I know it's a fact, right? Secondly, if Wikipedia is correct, then that is probably why it's having issues with small changes in light. As I've stated 100 times. Compare it to other phones, then tell me it's a great camera. If you compare it with other phones and still think it's the best, hey, good on you.

Its a great camera.
There I've said it, not to say it's the best camera at all types of photography.
No camera is.
The M8 requires effort, skill and a bit of luck with landscapes but show it a portrait or fast moving elements or low light and it'll make you look like a pro without even trying.
HTC have done research into what the majority use smartphone cameras for.
Nights out, Portraits, snapshots of animals and children to go on social media - all things the M8 excels at and does like a boss, because the automode is designed to work with these types of photos.
It may not be the best at HDR and landscapes out of the box with no effort but that's not where the HTC engineers focus was with the camera.
 
Of course compression algorithms will have an effect on dynamic range but I'm not aware of a camera phone that will take RAW images.

All cameras including cell phones take raw images. But most if not all phones only record the jpegs.

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All cameras including cell phones take raw images. But most if not all phones only record the jpegs.

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Arguing semantics on a message board? Did you think I was suggesting the compression processing was occurring in the camera hardware?
 
Arguing semantics on a message board? Did you think I was suggesting the compression processing was occurring in the camera hardware?

No I'm arguing that hardware alone does not take pictures on any camera and thus the poor dynamic range is not because the hardware can't do it, but because the software still needs work to show off its "benefits" or larger pixels.

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Re: M8 Camera

I read a few pages in this thread. Could someone summarize some thoughts about the camera. I think M8 convinced me finally to buy a new phone but the camera is critical because I am more like a shoot_a_photo_in_a_party guy. When I go to a vacation, I take my camera.

I've had the m8 since launch day, so I have no had plenty of time to experiment with the camera. My simple thoughts are this: The camera isn't necessarily better or worse than its closest competitors (S5 & 5S, for example), it's just very, very different. Not going to lie, despite all the talk about photons and apertures and sensor-sizes, it's a shock to the system at first to go from an 8+ megapixel camera down to 4. You absolutely lose fine detail (see the example given above about not being able to clearly read text on packages across the room). For this reason, as well as a few other technical reasons (blown out shots in daylight, occasional purple tinge), I was quite down on the camera in the first week. Slowly though, it really has grown on me. In exchange for that loss of detail, particularly when you start to zoom in, you get best-in-class low light performance. I have a three month old daughter that I'm just smitten with, I must admit. Last night, in my nearly pitch black bedroom, I was able to snap some photos of her sleeping in her crib without having to use a flash. It was craziest thing, like I was seeing in the dark. Even without optical image stabilization, the pictures were reasonably sharp and noise-free considering the conditions in which they were taken. UFocus has also really grown on me as well. Takes a few days to figure out how to get the best out of it and learn how to play nice with its limitations, but once you do, it's a really neat little feature. It's nice to be able to take some casual pics with decent bokeh without having to lug out the DSLR (here's a pic of my daughter because lord knows everyone loves seeing a stranger's baby yawning goofily imgur: the simple image sharer). It obviously can't replace the Canon Rebel, but even the fastest, most expensive Canon lens isn't exactly going to let me make a phone call either, right? The manual settings are pretty nifty, as is the Zoe stuff, and the front-facing camera takes the best selfies out there. Overall, I guess, once I was able to get past the lost pixels, I really have come to appreciate the camera for the things that make it stand out from the crowd. Still some frustrations that I hope can be addressed via a software update, but this phone really is tremendous, and personally, I would not let the camera stand in your way of picking it up.

TLDR; Camera is very different from other smartphones and comes with a learning curve. Tradeoffs made in megapixel count are redeemed by low-light performance, nifty depth of field tricks, and all around fun of using camera.
 
No I'm arguing that hardware alone does not take pictures on any camera and thus the poor dynamic range is not because the hardware can't do it, but because the software still needs work to show off its "benefits" or larger pixels.

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Ok, first of all I'm not aware of anyone actually showing that dynamic range is limited, let alone "poor" on the M8. Maybe you'd care to step up to the plate? Second, if a software defect were found or, more likely, a better method of post-processing the images you could push a patch to fix it. I don't work for HTC but I would hazard a guess that the current performance was a deliberate attempt to make the camera perform best in the most common scenarios while still making the thing easy to use. Not having the hardware available is something that can't be fixed though.
 
Ok, first of all I'm not aware of anyone actually showing that dynamic range is limited, let alone "poor" on the M8. Maybe you'd care to step up to the plate? Second, if a software defect were found or, more likely, a better method of post-processing the images you could push a patch to fix it. I don't work for HTC but I would hazard a guess that the current performance was a deliberate attempt to make the camera perform best in the most common scenarios while still making the thing easy to use. Not having the hardware available is something that can't be fixed though.

I don't need to step up to the plate. It's well established by now and fully known by anyone who has the m8 or can read a few reviews. (unlike the reviews of the m7, the m8 reviews are far more truthful and describe what I'm saying... And the fanbois seem to not be here this year to trash anyone who wants to speak the truth about this phone.)

Maybe it's time that you step up to the plate?

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I don't need to step up to the plate. It's well established by now and fully known by anyone who has the m8 or can read a few reviews. (unlike the reviews of the m7, the m8 reviews are far more truthful and describe what I'm saying... And the fanbois seem to not be here this year to trash anyone who wants to speak the truth about this phone.)

Maybe it's time that you step up to the plate?

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Well established is it? Well you should have no trouble pointing me to this vast information then... I do own the M8 and an Iphone 5S, I have not noticed any decrease in contrast performance.
 
Well established is it? Well you should have no trouble pointing me to this vast information then... I do own the M8 and an Iphone 5S, I have not noticed any decrease in contrast performance.

All I'm going to say is that with all the complaints on HDR shots and landscapes here on this forum, you are clearly wrong. (although we are talking about dynamic range, not sure what you mean by contrast performance.)

While I won't post links to other website reviews, here is a little quote from the AC review...

" Cameras are one of the most important parts of a smartphone these days. We document everything. And for all the talk about how revolutionary the camera was in the 2013 HTC One, with its ?UltraPixels? letting in way more light, never mind the relatively low 4-megapixel resolution ? well, it was a little bit of a let-down.

The 4-megapixel resolution quickly shows its limitations if you zoom into a picture at all.
That?s not to say we didn?t get some rather spectacular shots with it. It?s just that it wasn?t a great all-around camera. It struggled outdoors, almost like it couldn?t help itself in areas of bright light Low-light was a bit of an issue, too."

Now considering that this review was not aimed at a true camera review of the phone, but just to give you an idea of what comes with the phone. I'm sure like last year Alex will give us his true camera review shortly after the hype of the S5 is basically over. Maybe even a rematch of HTC vs Samsung, just like last year.

(Btw, I have an m8 as well)

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Of course compression algorithms will have an effect on dynamic range but I'm not aware of a camera phone that will SAVE the RAW images.

Nokia

I don't need to step up to the plate. It's well established by now and fully known by anyone who has the m8 or can read a few reviews. (unlike the reviews of the m7, the m8 reviews are far more truthful and describe what I'm saying... And the fanbois seem to not be here this year to trash anyone who wants to speak the truth about this phone.)

Maybe it's time that you step up to the plate?

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Yeah the Mods have done a great job this year keeping it under control.

The M8 doesn't appear to have a dynamic range issue when taken on its own. It seems to only be noticeable when viewed side-by-side with something else that does it noticeably better. It's the same thing I thought last year with the M7. When I viewed the pics in the setting I use them in (on the phone, sent via hangout/mms, social networks) they look great. When I view them on something larger I can see how the resolution has an impact (it's not terrible, but obviously more pixels looks better on larger displays).

The M8 has improved over the M7 in every area, and that's perfectly fine with me. That makes the images even more usable for my purposes. That combined with improvements in the camera app and additions to Zoe make it a win for me. I'm not saying it's perfect, and I'm not saying it's the best. I'm saying that for people that share on "smaller screens" and social networks the majority of the time it's great.

Any and all proof of strengths and weaknesses can be seen in the images being posted in the stickied thread. Same with the S5, which is now being regarded as not great in low-light, even though Samsung said it would be. It seems that in some ways both were over-hyped.
 
lol, maybe you should try and understand what you're arguing about before you, you know, argue. Since you don't understand how dynamic range and contrast relate I'll help you out (hint look at the photography definition under noun) Contrast | Define Contrast at Dictionary.com

Contrast? Really?

Last year I'm the only one who gave presets to 3 everyday tweeks (one of them was contrast) that will help with the m7. I did so before the reviews hit. Before most even understood just what can be done with such a phone. It helped with the lack of punch in the colors, helped with dynamic range, greatly helped with HDR mode, reduced nose and helped reduce the over shaping.

I've helped plenty to improve their shots, all while bigger forum members were trying thier hardest to discredit me and others who wanted to speak honestly about the phone.

Oh, Btw, I'm still here. It's your turn at bat...

Posted via Android Central App on my all new One
 
What can you guys tell me about Zoe? Even the app store page doesn't say what it does. When would I want to use Zoe and what does it actually do?
Thx
 
Nokia



Yeah the Mods have done a great job this year keeping it under control.

The M8 doesn't appear to have a dynamic range issue when taken on its own. It seems to only be noticeable when viewed side-by-side with something else that does it noticeably better. It's the same thing I thought last year with the M7. When I viewed the pics in the setting I use them in (on the phone, sent via hangout/mms, social networks) they look great. When I view them on something larger I can see how the resolution has an impact (it's not terrible, but obviously more pixels looks better on larger displays).

The M8 has improved over the M7 in every area, and that's perfectly fine with me. That makes the images even more usable for my purposes. That combined with improvements in the camera app and additions to Zoe make it a win for me. I'm not saying it's perfect, and I'm not saying it's the best. I'm saying that for people that share on "smaller screens" and social networks the majority of the time it's great.

Any and all proof of strengths and weaknesses can be seen in the images being posted in the stickied thread. Same with the S5, which is now being regarded as not great in low-light, even though Samsung said it would be. It seems that in some ways both were over-hyped.

No Kevin, it's everyone. All the mods, the staff, the people behind the curtain, and the fans.

The m8's camera has improved. It's why I jumped back to HTC. That and I found that while the new software is not perfect, it has way too many pros to overlook. The phone is sharp too. Lol

Posted via Android Central App on my all new One
 
Dumb question...

Can you display pics taken with the M8 on a tv like you can with the S5? I have the S5, but the lack of dev support is swaying me to the M8. I also still hate TW even though it's been revamped a little. Not trying to start a flame war here. Just genuinely curious. My wife and I like that feature a lot on the S5.
 
Dumb question...

Can you display pics taken with the M8 on a tv like you can with the S5? I have the S5, but the lack of dev support is swaying me to the M8. I also still hate TW even though it's been revamped a little. Not trying to start a flame war here. Just genuinely curious. My wife and I like that feature a lot on the S5.

Sure, with a chromecast ($35) or HTC media link ($100) it works great. I have a chromecast and I highly recommend it

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Contrast? Really?

Last year I'm the only one who gave presets to 3 everyday tweeks (one of them was contrast) that will help with the m7. I did so before the reviews hit. Before most even understood just what can be done with such a phone. It helped with the lack of punch in the colors, helped with dynamic range, greatly helped with HDR mode, reduced nose and helped reduce the over shaping.

I've helped plenty to improve their shots, all while bigger forum members were trying thier hardest to discredit me and others who wanted to speak honestly about the phone.

Oh, Btw, I'm still here. It's your turn at bat...

Posted via Android Central App on my all new One

Well isn't this a lively debate. I'm entertained.