LG V40, what would you want to see?

[Mike Dee]

Ur only saying it bc you have a Pixel 2 XL.. come on, that was unexcusable to remove the headphone jack... They even advertise the headphone jack on their Pixel 1, remember? It's all about money... Google making dough selling those piece of junk Bluetooth earphones.. BTW Google Pixels were never the best seller, Pixel Chromebooks are overpowered junk and unnecessary.

Explain this: why does the thin Google Chromebooks have 2 USB C ports and a headphone jack? But the Pixel phone doesn't? I thought the headphone jack was dead, why include it in the Chromebook? The reason is because the Pixel Buds... greedy non-innovative Google trying to profit however The Pixel 2 sales were disapponting.. they had to pretend to be "out of stock" to increase hype... Sad.. Google needs to STOP buying out other companies out and bring back innovation of their own... (Look at what they did to Songza, bought them out then shut them down, then redirected people to Google Play music..) Playing it safe and only focusing on profit. Talk about Monopoly.



Google Pixelbook:

Specs

7th-gen Intel Core i5 or i7 processor
8GB or 16GB of RAM
128GB SSD, 256GB SSD, or 512GB NVMe
Two USB-C ports with fast-charging
>>>> Headphone jack <<<<
720p front-facing camera
Four microphones
Two speakers
Bluetooth 4.2

Why have a headphone jack on the Chromebook Pixel, but not Pixel 2? Answer: Force people to get Google Pixel Buds.

No thats not why I'm saying it. I have a G5, V20 and had a V30.....yes I now own a Pixel but that fact doesn't make my decisions.

I don't have Pixel buds so your argument makes no sense. I also have a Pixel book and don't use the jack. I use a dongle on that and get much better sound which makes sense to me.

 

[Mike Dee]

Haha yeah, a giant lump of a battery pack and cables going in and out of pockets... Unfortunately the mobile phone industry is mainly focused to looks than practicality... The V20 was slammed for looking "ugly". We are becoming more "materialistic" more than ever, appearance and vanity... HTC's main feature is how shiney the back looks, that's all they boast.. wow, really? Sooner or later we'll have to rely on kick starter campaigns for a utility smartphone... Maybe I should start one??

Why not live and let live?

 

[8livesleft]

Haha yeah, a giant lump of a battery pack and cables going in and out of pockets... Unfortunately the mobile phone industry is mainly focused to looks than practicality... The V20 was slammed for looking "ugly". We are becoming more "materialistic" more than ever, appearance and vanity... HTC's main feature is how shiney the back looks, that's all they boast.. wow, really? Sooner or later we'll have to rely on kick starter campaigns for a utility smartphone... Maybe I should start one??

Go for it! Just use basic Android to get updated easily.

My S7 has a glass back. Nice and pretty. Of course I immediately had to slap on a plastic case to cover it and I think that's what everyone's doing so what's the point?

I miss the old days when phones were basically all plastic and could handle hard drops without cracking up.

 

[anony_mouse]

Would it be a problem if someone disagreed with you on the lack of the upside?

What kind of problem are thinking of? I believe the forum rules allow for disagreement and even persuasion.

What a strange question.

 

[anony_mouse]

I watched the video, one issue with it is that they used the OnePlus 5. The OnePlus 5 has white calibrated horribly, to about 8000k, which is going to make white look very blue compared to a perfectly calibrated display and it also has horrible color calibration, with a Delta-E of 1.65. For comparison, the Note 8, every recent iPhone, the S9, Pixel 2 XL, etc. which all have a Delta-E of <= 0.5 (with the entire list there except the Note 8 being < 0.3).

Are these figures from the video? (I can't watch it right now)
What definition of "delta-E" is used?
If the delta-E is really 1.65, and you're using some kind of "normal" definition of delta-E, the error is almost certainly not noticeable to the human eye, even in a side by side comparison. In fact, a screen with a delta-E for the white point of 1.65 would be very very well calibrated. A typical value for a "Just Noticeable Difference", i.e. the smallest difference you could notice in a side by side comparison, is around 2.3. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_difference.

 

[Itsa_Me_Mario]

What kind of problem are thinking of? I believe the forum rules allow for disagreement and even persuasion.

What a strange question.

They of course do. The items I was responding to were, "Are you defending the removal of headphone sockets from phones?!" and "At risk of stating the obvious, having no headphone socket means that you need an adaptor to connect your headphones to your phone. There is no upside." The answer to your first questioned seemed to be an obvious "yes", though your response seems incredulous and in the second statement, by stating, "there is no upside" as if it were a fact, it seemed to be pushing the idea that a person would be foolish to either support or be indifferent towards the removal of the 3.5 mm port. As you indicated today, and hopefully this is in agreement with your intent, disagreement on both of those ideas would be welcome. Some people hate the removal of the 3.5 mm port, some people love it and it seems that the majority of people don't care at all.

 

[anony_mouse]

Motos were pass thru but most aren't. Since you don't understand the benefits of an external DAC it's a bit much to call it stupid but if it's stupid to you that's ok....I disagree because I've seen the benefits but you don't have to agree.

I understand the claimed advantages of an external DAC. If I gave any impression of not understanding the claimed advantages of an external DAC, please point me to the relevant place and I will correct it.

Enabling digital audio output via the USB socket of the phone is fine and if some people want that, then it's good that phone manufacturers support it. But doing so does *not* require the removal of the headphone socket! A phone can have a headphone socket *and* provide a digital audio output for an external DAC. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Mike Dee]

What kind of problem are thinking of? I believe the forum rules allow for disagreement and even persuasion.

What a strange question.

He was referring to your response below in which you ask me if I was defending the removal of the headphone jack. I think his question is fair.

Are you defending the removal of headphone sockets from phones?!

 

[Itsa_Me_Mario]

Are these figures from the video? (I can't watch it right now)
What definition of "delta-E" is used?
If the delta-E is really 1.65, and you're using some kind of "normal" definition of delta-E, the error is almost certainly not noticeable to the human eye, even in a side by side comparison. In fact, a screen with a delta-E for the white point of 1.65 would be very very well calibrated. A typical value for a "Just Noticeable Difference", i.e. the smallest difference you could notice in a side by side comparison, is around 2.3. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_difference.

I'm not aware of there being multiple definitions of delta-E in this context, so I'm not sure how to answer that part. The 1.65 isn't a huge problem by itself. It is much further from perfect than the best devices, but 3 years ago 1.65 wouldn't have been anything to complain about in most devices. The problem is the 1.65 coupled with 8000k white point. Those two things combined can make for a very skewed looking color pallette.

 

[Itsa_Me_Mario]

A phone can have a headphone socket *and* provide a digital audio output for an external DAC. They are not mutually exclusive.

They are not mutually exclusive, however they can be considered to be redundant and I would think it reasonable for the people making the design decisions and pricing out parts to arrive at the conclusion that they could better use the space and/or money for something else. Just curious, why do you refer to the advantages of using a dedicated external DAC as "claimed advantages"?

 

[anony_mouse]

He was referring to your response below in which you ask me if I was defending the removal of the headphone jack. I think his question is fair.

I'd just never come across anyone with this opinion before, outside a few Apple fans. I wanted to clarify whether I'd understood correctly. The response seemed somewhat passive-aggressive.

 

[anony_mouse]

I'm not aware of there being multiple definitions of delta-E in this context, so I'm not sure how to answer that part. The 1.65 isn't a huge problem by itself. It is much further from perfect than the best devices, but 3 years ago 1.65 wouldn't have been anything to complain about in most devices. The problem is the 1.65 coupled with 8000k white point. Those two things combined can make for a very skewed looking color pallette.

Did you read the Wikipedia article I linked to? That provides several definitions of delta-E in this context.
Anyway that's not the important point. The important point is that a delta-E of 1.65 (according to most common definitions) for the white point (or generally any other point, but this is complicated) is *not perceptible to the human eye*. It is certainly not a problem and will not lead to a "very skewed looking colour palette".

It's also completely incompatible with the colour temperature numbers you posted earlier. Most of those certainly would be noticeable.

 

[anony_mouse]

They are not mutually exclusive, however they can be considered to be redundant and I would think it reasonable for the people making the design decisions and pricing out parts to arrive at the conclusion that they could better use the space and/or money for something else. Just curious, why do you refer to the advantages of using a dedicated external DAC as "claimed advantages"?

Um, I have no problem if people want to use external DACs, but most people don't and actually want to use normal headphones. So including both options seems sensible. If it's really a problem to include both (which it clearly isn't), maybe manufacturers could make two different models - one with a headphone socket and one without (but including whatever it is that they can't fit into the model with a headphone socket).

 

[Itsa_Me_Mario]

but most people don't and actually want to use normal headphones

There's nothing stopping anyone from using regular headphones with a 3.5 mm jack or USB-C headphones or BT headphones with devices that use the USB Type C port for audio output. The only use case that is hindered is charging and listening to wired headphones at the same time.

If it's really a problem to include both (which it clearly isn't), maybe manufacturers could make two different models - one with a headphone socket and one without (but including whatever it is that they can't fit into the model with a headphone socket).

Each variation of a device creates a huge additional cost that is completely unnecessary. I'm unclear on what you mean by "if it's really a problem" and "it clearly isn't". In teardowns of devices without the headphone port, I haven't seen a device yet that isn't making use of the available space end to end. There were reddit threads stating that iPhones still had room for it and had a big empty space, however as can be seen in this picture of the 7 Plus (which would have the most available space due to being the largest), it is clear that there is no space on the top or bottom to put it. https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/WdUbBkkOlvGgdtHN.huge - while this image of the 6 Plus shows how big the component actually is: https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/pdeN2LLSu4KFS5BC.huge (bottom left of the device on the right). It's a huge component and every square mm is precious in phone design, and that's before adding in the additional cost of the component, which even if it is only $0.05 per unit, multiply that by millions of device sales and you're still talking about the salary of several engineers - all for the inclusion of a component which has only one function, and that function is redundant to the function of another part that takes up similar space but performs multiple functions. Finally, removing it also eases the process of providing ingress protection as it is one less opening to worry about.

Is it the most consumer friendly choice in the world? Hell no. Is it understandable how they got there? Kinda.

 

[anony_mouse]

Is it the most consumer friendly choice in the world? Hell no. Is it understandable how they got there? Kinda.

Let's just finish this discussion and agree that we have different views on this subject. I look forward to the removal of the USB port, which is also unnecessary when we have wireless charging and Bluetooth connectivity!

 

[Itsa_Me_Mario]

Did you read the Wikipedia article I linked to? That provides several definitions of delta-E in this context.
Anyway that's not the important point. The important point is that a delta-E of 1.65 (according to most common definitions) for the white point (or generally any other point, but this is complicated) is *not perceptible to the human eye*. It is certainly not a problem and will not lead to a "very skewed looking colour palette".

It's also completely incompatible with the colour temperature numbers you posted earlier. Most of those certainly would be noticeable.

We would be talking about the definition used to compare sRGB or DCI-P3 color saturation accuracy for which reviewers like Anandtech are using SpectraCal CalMAN software and plotting measurements with the CIE 1976 formula. I am not an expert, but this seems to be standard and don't think anyone in the industry would be using a different methodology, even if they have different software or a different colorimeter.

 

[Mike Dee]

I'd just never come across anyone with this opinion before, outside a few Apple fans. I wanted to clarify whether I'd understood correctly. The response seemed somewhat passive-aggressive.

There was a time I was against the removal but it was because of the implementation. For example: the Droid Z force uses the adapter as pass thru device. This made no sense to me because all they gained was making the phone thinner. The way HTC, Pixel and Razer do it makes sense to me because I get better audio than most phones and I'm not locked into a particular phone or spending a lot on an external DAC to do so. The only disadvantage I see is you can't charge simultaneously without a third party adapter, however I never need that feature. I don't see carrying the dongle as a disadvantage because I leave them attached to the headphones or buds. Yes I have more than one adapter but they are relatively inexpensive. For me it was a mild adjustment to using the adapter. I'm not saying it's a perfect solution for everyone but I like it. I even use the adapters on my Pixel book because I get better sound than through the standard jack.

 

[anony_mouse]

We would be talking about the definition used to compare sRGB or DCI-P3 color saturation accuracy for which reviewers like Anandtech are using SpectraCal CalMAN software and plotting measurements with the CIE 1976 formula. I am not an expert, but this seems to be standard and don't think anyone in the industry would be using a different methodology, even if they have different software or a different colorimeter.

OK, CIE 1976. That's a reasonable choice (although there are more recent, more accurate standards). You'd be surprised how many other definitions, many home made, get used.

Anyway, now we can be certain. If the LG phone has a delta-E of 1.65 at the white point, it has very very accurate colour reproduction (at least, for pure white). The fact that other phones were even more accurate is really a wonderful testament to the quality of smart phone displays today. If these tests are actually correct, a typical human would not be able to tell the difference between the original image and the image when reproduced on any of the phones!

 

[Mike Dee]

Let's just finish this discussion and agree that we have different views on this subject. I look forward to the removal of the USB port, which is also unnecessary when we have wireless charging and Bluetooth connectivity!

Disagree....sound quality isn't there yet on Bluetooth.
I also prefer rapid charging over wireless. I often experienced excessive heat with wireless charging on my Droid and that's not good. How do you charge your phone on the move with no jack and Wireless? Yeah, I've seen they now have a wireless juice pack but that's useless unless you're stationary. When they come out with true wireless instead of what is really inductive charging then maybe that will solve the problem.

 

[anony_mouse]

The way HTC, Pixel and Razer do it makes sense to me because I get better audio than most phones and I'm not locked into a particular phone or spending a lot on an external DAC to do so.

As promised, I'm not going to comment on the removal of the headphone or USB sockets any more. But I have to ask about this. How is the audio inherently better via USB if you're not using an external DAC (which, in principle at least, might be better than the DAC in the phone)?