Is it stealing?

[shaddix]

Your entitled to your opinion. If I don't pay my water bill, my faucet looses its function. Nice facts.

No it doesn't, lol. Your faucet is a pipe and a valve. You're saying if you cut off your water service the pipe vanishes and the valve no longer opens? Do you not realize that it is your property? How can you not understand that you cannot steal something that already belongs to you?

 

[shaddix]

Ok if Verizon has nothing to do with it, please tell me who is previding the transmission of data that you are using for Tethering..... Oh that's right Motorola is.. No?? Maybe Google has a network for this.... No??? There goes one of those twist that I was discussing.

OK, I guess if I make a box that is suppose to supply power to your house that makes power free BUT the one thing is that you have to hook to the main Power Co power box to supply the power.... So when the power company still sends you a bill please, update me how that conversation will go.

You fail to understand the difference in data and function. Can't steal something that already belongs to you.

 

[ottscay]

Lol, I am calling all my bills (services) functions. Now I can safely continue to receive them, but I won't pay for functions. Serious? FYI, your phone will function without verizon services, just use wifi and skip calls, ha ha. IMO if you think the motorcycle sitting out front (rooting) and the keys are in the ignition (pick your tether hack of choice) doesn't make it right to ride off. Sure, its easy to do, and there is no challenge in doing it. My question is, what else do you think is ok to take without permission of the owner (ethics aside) though our responses clearly show a line of morality. I agree with wildman, he clearly understands what he is saying.

See, this is the sort of thing that lead to me dropping politeness before; I'm trying to do better, but you've set up a total strawman argument that has nothing what so ever to do with what I said. You seem to not be able to grasp the legal distinctions here, and keep falling back on "so you're saying it's ok to steal". Not only didn't I condone the activities, I explicitly blamed people who tethered for creating a larger problem for those who want to root their phones for other reasons (i.e. to theme their phone). I certainly never said it was ok to swipe motorcycles with the keyes in them. And you trying to redefine what a utility is has no legal bearing on how they're defined.

So I guess I'll just let it go, as you seem to be completely unwilling now to do anything but make up something totally opposite of what I've said, and then to mock the point you imagine I've taken. If you can't grasp that something can be wrong without it being stealing, and that "what's wrong" is an ethical statement while "stealing" is a legal distinction I don't really know what else I can tell you.

 

[ottscay]

Verizon and a number of other carriers stock has been taking a hit back and forth in the last year and these changes can cost the market millions, on a financial view this can be a per view situation of how this is interpreted. But you have your opinion and I have mine.. That the pleasure of freedom..

Sigh. Verizon profits nearly double, but miss Wall Street expectations -- Engadget

So let's see, Verizon doubled their profits year over year, and your opinion is "they're taking a hit"??? I guess that is indeed the pleasure of "freedom"....

 

[shaddix]

How did my toilet example fail to explain? Say if your tap provider not only to charges you for the water you use, but also charge you every time you bathed(as an additional charge on top of the water used)? And you agreed to that on a contract. What if you bathe without telling them and do not pay the bathing fee? Does that mean you are stealing? Or lying? If you can answer that question correctly I will leave this thread.


And fyi, your phone can absolutely make calls over wifi without a wireless carrier.

 

[Johnly]

No it doesn't, lol. Your faucet is a pipe and a valve. You're saying if you cut off your water service the pipe vanishes and the valve no longer opens? Do you not realize that it is your property? How can you not understand that you cannot steal something that already belongs to you?

I see where you come from. A lot of people don't consider it stealing according to the poll. If my wallet is empty, does it still provide a useful function? Can I break into the water main and restore my water, sure. Would that be stealing?

See, this is the sort of thing that lead to me dropping politeness before; I'm trying to do better, but you've set up a total strawman argument that has nothing what so ever to do with what I said. You seem to not be able to grasp the legal distinctions here, and keep falling back on "so you're saying it's ok to steal". Not only didn't I condone the activities, I explicitly blamed people who tethered for creating a larger problem for those who want to root their phones for other reasons (i.e. to theme their phone). I certainly never said it was ok to swipe motorcycles with the keyes in them. And you trying to redefine what a utility is has no legal bearing on how they're defined.

So I guess I'll just let it go, as you seem to be completely unwilling now to do anything but make up something totally opposite of what I've said, and then to mock the point you imagine I've taken. If you can't grasp that something can be wrong without it being stealing, and that "what's wrong" is an ethical statement while "stealing" is a legal distinction I don't really know what else I can tell you.

it's all good man. I have been tempted to rudeness as well. Look, I am not trying to converge here, and I still think it is stealing. I have other things to do today, but I am going to contact several attorneys and ask for permission to post their POV on this mater, and see of verizon does have legal ground to collect on unauthorized services and press charges. I encourage others to do the same in their states. We will just go back and forth until then. I think we have made our case. Reporting back tomorrow.....have a good everyone, we all agree android rocks!

 

[ottscay]

Scott, don't be silly, for a guy that doesn't condone it, you are dicing up for it like you are taking this argument to the grave. Did you know after you steal a certain dollar amount of property/service/utility it becomes a felony. call a few lawers in your state and ask them if unauthorized use of verizons service could be considered theft. You would be surprised.

Ok, now you just jumped over the issues. I'll ignore the amusing reference to felony theft, as it's something I'm aware of. But say, Apple currently thinks that Samsung "stole" it's designs and owes it millions. Does that mean that Samsung will go to jail? Of course not, it's not stealing in the legal sense, it's (claimed) violation of trademark. It's a civil matter.

As for calling up lawyers to ask them - if you phrase it as "unauthorized use of their network" they are probably going to assume you know what you are talking about and say "yes", because unauthorized use of their network would imply you are using it without any contract. And that would indeed be stealing. If you explained to them that what you really meant was using a piece of software that violates the ToS, the lawyer would tell you "no".

By the way, if you use more water than you pay for you won't go to jail either (even if the amount you used is over your state's laws for felony theft). They'll send you a bigger bill. And if you don't pay it they may take you to court and garnish your wages, or if your utilities are tied into your housing taxes (my water bill is, for example) you could eventually forfeit your house, but it wouldn't be treated as a criminal offense. Now if you secretly drill over to the water main (or your neighbors house) and install your own pipe and take water without having any contract with the municipality (obviously not possible in my case) then it would be stealing. Are you seeing a pattern here?

 

[ottscay]

I am going to contact several attorneys and ask for permission to post their POV on this mater, and see of verizon does have legal ground to collect on unauthorized services and press charges. I encourage others to do the same in their states. We will just go back and forth until then.

WAIT. What??? Of COURSE they have legal ground to collect on unauthorized services. That's not the same thing at all. I've said repeatedly it's a breach of contract, which gives Verizon several different avenues to try and redress their civil complaint (of which the most common would be to end your contract and charge you for early termination).

What they don't have the right to call up the cops and ask them to arrest you for tethering in a way they don't like. This is where my frustration is coming from - I've never once claimed they didn't have legal recourse, I've said they don't have criminal recourse. They've have to engage in tort litigation (or more likely, just end your contract and bill you according to the early termination rules in the ToS, since that's cheaper and faster).

I think we have made our case. Reporting back tomorrow.....have a good everyone, we all agree android rocks!

Except that I don't think you're fully grasping my case (see above where you apparently didn't realize I fully agree that Verizon can take you to court if they see fit), and to be honest I don't see you making any case, except to claim that stealing is wrong, you think tethering is wrong, ergo tethering must be stealing. But things can be wrong or unethical and not be stealing.

 

[shaddix]

You gotta keep it simple man. I don't understand how they can't tell the difference between a theft and a lie..... I've made it as simple as I can :-(

 

[wildman]

Sigh. Verizon profits nearly double, but miss Wall Street expectations -- Engadget

So let's see, Verizon doubled their profits year over year, and your opinion is "they're taking a hit"??? I guess that is indeed the pleasure of "freedom"....

Forgive me if from what I have noticed from official stock reports says different but whatever, it wont matter no matter what anyone says, does or expresses, the world is built around the concept to look at what benefit themselves only with no care of if the view is logical.

The morals concept is always blurred when a person decided that they want to do something and this situation is one of those things... This isn't just the corporate worlds problem its the consumers issue as well...

That where freedom comes into effect.

 

[ottscay]

Forgive me if from what I have noticed from official stock reports says different but whatever, it wont matter no matter what anyone says, does or expresses, the world is built around the concept to look at what benefit themselves only with no care of if the view is logical.

No, you're right, their stock took a bit of a beating for "just doubling" their profits because they missed consensus projections by a penny per share. But that's a problem with the way the stock market works, not an honest reflection of how well Verizon is doing financially. If people were investing in companies to get paid a share of the profits (i.e., for a dividend) rather than making a bet that their stock price would increase people's perception of which companies are doing well would be dramatically different.

 

[terpitude71]

Folks, a spirited debate is great, but lets refrain from personal attacks and name calling. Serves no purpose other than to tick people off

 

[Droid800]

Incorrect, you would have to be getting free data for it to be stealing. As in not paying for it. You are paying for it, however it is simply breaking your promise to not do with it what you said. Breaking an agreement is not stealing.

This is like your cable company putting in it's ToS : "Customer may not watch our cable TV service on any TV bigger than 32 inches without paying an additional 20 dollars". If you went ahead and watched cable TV on a 42" without paying, what are you stealing from the cable provider? The answer is nothing, you're just breaking the agreement.

Tethering for free is the same thing. You are paying for service, said service includes unlimited data, or 2gb, what have you. You agree to not use that data on anything other than your phone. You take nothing from the provider if you do, you just break your word.

This should be crystal clear to all except those who can't be reasoned with.

Tethering is not a service of your provider, it is a function of the device.

Try tethering without paying for it for a significant period of time and see how long before Verizon cuts off your service and bills you for it.

Tethering IS a service of your provider. It doesn't matter if its a function of the device. If you are NOT paying for it, it is NOT something that you are able to use without repercussions.

 

[shaddix]

Tethering IS a service of your provider. It doesn't matter if its a function of the device. If you are NOT paying for it, it is NOT something that you are able to use without repercussions.

Are you trolling here? "It doesn't matter if it's a function of the device". wtf? So you're saying that the speaker on the phone is a service of Verizon then. When you go to play an mp3 on your phone, that is provided by Verizon?

Do you not realize you have ALREADY paid for it!? HELLO.


Sorry mods, I let myself get irritated when talking with ------.

 

[jerseyboy357]

I myself have one explanation to my theory on this topic now and some of your posts have helped me peice it together so thanks first off. Wirelessly tethering my X is a breach of contract with my provider Verizon. I know that if they so chose to act, because of my action, my line will be disconnected and I will be forced most likely, to pay the current outstanding balance on my account, the charge(however they figure it) of the data I tethered, and the ETF. I would most likely feel a bit stupid cuz I went rebel and tried to see if I could get free internet because honestly, when you say "free internet" it turns at least someone's head in your direction. Not defending there, just stating what I see as obvious. So with that in mind to answer the OP question "Should WiFi tethering be free, is it stealing without plan?"
Part 1- Yes I think it should be free therefore I believe it should be free.
Part 2- Yes it is stealing(the definition of theft for me) if you are taking something that is not yours without permission, aka you are not currently paying Verizon a monthly fee for the service, yet you are using it or "taking" it in this instance.

Here's a poll question that I would find interesting. Who currently, and be honest because with those poll results we can tell, either is participating in this thread, reading it, trolling it, or visiting our forum(DX) usinng Wireless Tether? I am not. I am on my home wi-fi network thru my cable company.

P.S.- After reading the last two or three pages, I can see how, overall, how compassionate we are about our world we have built around us. Not getting mushy but it's nice to see. A place where our words have the meanings were expressing to each other. With the X we don't mind having around.

 

[Droid800]

Are you trolling here? "It doesn't matter if it's a function of the device". wtf? So you're saying that the speaker on the phone is a service of Verizon then. When you go to play an mp3 on your phone, that is provided by Verizon?

Do you not realize you have ALREADY paid for it!? HELLO.


Sorry mods, I let myself get irritated when talking with ------.

Actually, as it appears, the only troll here seems to be you.


To answer your question: No. Read the damn contract.

You open the app and tether, you pay. Its as simple as that.

 

[mclarryjr]

You guys were warned earlier today about personal attacks and you continue calling each other trolls which is against forum guidelines. This thread will be closed until everyone cools off a bit.