Thunderbolt vs Bionic

[WrlsFanatic]

Oh yeah, but don't forget... HTC >>>> Motorola

 

[Bushido Brown]

There losing my sales with that locked bootloader

I'm sure the number they are losing is pretty small and insugnificant but they are losing.

And I agree with Chris that they will not be changing the bootloader

Thunderbolt here I come

I keep reading this, and I always end up shaking my head. How is HTC any different? Their devices restore sock user permissions on reboot. Obviously, these security methods can be defeated, just like Moto's bootloader.Just takes a little time for devs to find a workaround. IMO, they're on even footing in this regard.

I have no idea why I constantly read this over and over and over again.Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Adrynalyne]

Even footing, how?

Show me one defeated locked Moto bootloader, thanks

 

[tekhinator]

I would plan to get thunderbolt but the only possible deal breaker to me is the 1400 mAh.

 

[Bushido Brown]

Even footing, how?

Show me one defeated locked Moto bootloader, thanks

My semantics may have not been accurate, but my underlying point is that there really isn't anything significant a HTC device can do that a Moto cannot, besides run a Sense UI ROM, but obviously there are other challenges involved in making that happen. The same way HTC devices couldn't (easily) get Blur ported over. You can still flash updates prior to their release, you can still run wifi tether and other root related apps, and you can overclock it if you want to for whatever reason. That's what I mean by even footing.

Neither are open season for hacking. They both have some level of security that requires defeating. Just like the G2, Desire Z, mytouch 4G, and Desire HD all rewrote stock permissions after rebooting.

 

[Brett]

My semantics may have not been accurate, but my underlying point is that there really isn't anything significant a HTC device can do that a Moto cannot, besides run a Sense UI ROM, but obviously there are other challenges involved in making that happen. The same way HTC devices couldn't (easily) get Blur ported over. You can still flash updates prior to their release, you can still run wifi tether and other root related apps, and you can overclock it if you want to for whatever reason. That's what I mean by even footing.

Neither are open season for hacking. They both have some level of security that requires defeating. Just like the G2, Desire Z, mytouch 4G, and Desire HD all rewrote stock permissions after rebooting.

You have a point but it is only valid for the first month of each devices release. Yes, they are all locked in some way but (this is a big but) all of HTC's newer devices have been fully cracked. From my knowledge, the Droid 2 and X still can't run a cyanogen rom. Yes, you can mod those 2 devices and them them but you can't flash a custom rom and kernel.

HTC's devices on the other hand are at this point, free to do as you wish. You can't load a custom rom (following directions and also know what you are doing) with a potential chance of bricking your device. It can happen but highly unlikely.

If you ask me, ever since motorola saw profit from the original Droid they have become power hungry for control. Locking the boot loader serves no purpose that is beneficial to the end user. They can say it is to help people from rooting and possibly brick their device its BS. If that was their intent, why would they put the e-fuse lock on that increases the possibility of bricking their device.

Motorola is turning into the Mac version of Android with their ideals and methods.

Sent from my Droid Incredible because I'm too lazy to walk over to my computer.

 

[Johnly]

get what tickles you....pshhh....if you are in need of security, get a bionic, if you want to exploit it, HD.....yeha~

 

[menschmaschine5]

My semantics may have not been accurate, but my underlying point is that there really isn't anything significant a HTC device can do that a Moto cannot, besides run a Sense UI ROM, but obviously there are other challenges involved in making that happen. The same way HTC devices couldn't (easily) get Blur ported over. You can still flash updates prior to their release, you can still run wifi tether and other root related apps, and you can overclock it if you want to for whatever reason. That's what I mean by even footing.

Neither are open season for hacking. They both have some level of security that requires defeating. Just like the G2, Desire Z, mytouch 4G, and Desire HD all rewrote stock permissions after rebooting.

The locked bootloader is very difficult to get around. In fact, no one has cracked it yet. This means there's much more you can do with an HTC phone than a Moto phone.

HTC phones, on the contrary, ARE open season for hacking. It seems to me that you're talking about the Z4Root app, which doesn't do a permanent root on an HTC phone. However, you can easily do a permanent root, with S-off, with unrevoked (by permanent I mean that it stays rooted when you reboot; I have a Dinc that I rooted in November, I turn it off every night, and it's still rooted). It would also definitely be not very difficult for a Motoblur ROM to come to an HTC phone (provided Moto makes the source code available), it's just that no one's developed it (there's no reason to, because HTC Sense is the best manufacturer UI out there. All Dinc ROMs that I've seen are Vanilla based, Sense based, or MIUI based). It would, however, be impossible right now for a Sense ROM to go to a Moto phone (or any non motoblur ROM, for that matter).

 

[eric6052]

Both of these phones look awesome. I'm going to be sitting out this years round of smartphones. I have an X that I really like and I don't see a big enough improvement to pay full retail foe a device. In 18 months or so I'll see what's out there. I'm really curious to see the screens on these two phones side by side to really get a feel for the difference those extra pixels make. I'm thinking right now I'm probably done with Motorola if the locked bootloaderstays around. Its not that I even want to hack my phone like crazy but unwanted the option to do whatever I want with it.

 

[Bushido Brown]

The locked bootloader is very difficult to get around. In fact, no one has cracked it yet. This means there's much more you can do with an HTC phone than a Moto phone.

HTC phones, on the contrary, ARE open season for hacking. It seems to me that you're talking about the Z4Root app, which doesn't do a permanent root on an HTC phone. However, you can easily do a permanent root, with S-off, with unrevoked (by permanent I mean that it stays rooted when you reboot; I have a Dinc that I rooted in November, I turn it off every night, and it's still rooted). It would also definitely be not very difficult for a Motoblur ROM to come to an HTC phone (provided Moto makes the source code available), it's just that no one's developed it (there's no reason to, because HTC Sense is the best manufacturer UI out there. All Dinc ROMs that I've seen are Vanilla based, Sense based, or MIUI based). It would, however, be impossible right now for a Sense ROM to go to a Moto phone (or any non motoblur ROM, for that matter).

Permanent root was NOT available from day one for either the EVO or INC - and funny you mention the DINC, because it was quite challenging even getting root at all when that phone was in its infancy. It is NOT impossible to port Sense to a Moto phone, as there was a team of devs working on bringing it to the original Droid. Yes, I'm aware the D1 doesn't have the same restrictions as the current Droids, but I digress...

There is no open season to HTC phones. Almost ALL Android phones have some level of security that needs to be worked around. I don't measure a phone's "openess" on whether or not Cyanogen supports them. I've been playing around with a DINC for about a month, and I have yet to flash a CM rom. Root access usually means you're flashing updates, making backups, changing framework, and running root apps. ALL OF THESE THINGS CAN BE DONE ON ANY ANDROID DEVICE. Including Blur based Moto devices.

Again, there will always be a never ending flood of people saying HTC is more open, but when put to task as to "how" they are more open, the best I ever hear is "well...I can flash Cyanogen."

 

[menschmaschine5]

Permanent root was NOT available from day one for either the EVO or INC - and funny you mention the DINC, because it was quite challenging even getting root at all when that phone was in its infancy. It is NOT impossible to port Sense to a Moto phone, as there was a team of devs working on bringing it to the original Droid. Yes, I'm aware the D1 doesn't have the same restrictions as the current Droids, but I digress...

This makes the D1 point irrelevant. The Moto Droid does not have the locked bootloader (which, by the way, Moto claims was a deliberate decision). That was just a bad attempt at poking a semantic hole in my argument when you know what I meant.

The point is, now the Dinc and Evo are open season for hacking. It didn't take long to root the phones. The Droid X, Droid 2, etc. are not. HTC did put in some security measures, but they have been defeated. Moto put in more stringent security measures that have not been defeated. It goes without saying that root for all phones besides the N1 and NS was not available from day 1, but the point is that it became available pretty quickly.

With a locked bootloader, you can't get rid of motoblur, you can't flash a different kernel, and there's a whole host of other things you can't do. On the Dinc, you can use any UI you want (provided there's a ROM for it/you want to cook a ROM for it), and you can switch kernels to your heart's content.

 

[karnovaran]

I've been playing around with a DINC for about a month, and I have yet to flash a CM rom.

Quite frankly, you're missing out.

You're correct in saying there have been security measures in place on every HTC phone and they have become more and more robust. However, people don't say HTC is more open simply because they can flash CM; they say it because HTC releases their source code and drivers (huge), does not use RSA encryption, and does not explicitly denounce custom ROMs the way Moto has (actually, I believe there has been some evidence that HTC enjoys the modding community). These actions have led to users eventually gaining full control over their hardware, something X/2/Pro users will never have.

 

[Bushido Brown]

This makes the D1 point irrelevant. The Moto Droid does not have the locked bootloader (which, by the way, Moto claims was a deliberate decision). That was just a bad attempt at poking a semantic hole in my argument when you know what I meant.

The point is, now the Dinc and Evo are open season for hacking. It didn't take long to root the phones. The Droid X, Droid 2, etc. are not. HTC did put in some security measures, but they have been defeated. Moto put in more stringent security measures that have not been defeated. It goes without saying that root for all phones besides the N1 and NS was not available from day 1, but the point is that it became available pretty quickly.

With a locked bootloader, you can't get rid of motoblur, you can't flash a different kernel, and there's a whole host of other things you can't do. On the Dinc, you can use any UI you want (provided there's a ROM for it/you want to cook a ROM for it), and you can switch kernels to your heart's content.

Uh...the INC took a few months before anyone even achieved root. Look, I'm not trying to poke semantic holes. How about you tell me exactly what a D2/DX/DPro phone cannot do that a super duper opened HTC apparently can???????? This shouldn't take any more than 1 paragraph to accomplish.

p.s. Google Fission. You can get rid of Motoblur if you want too. The primary advantage of alternate kernels is to achieve overclocking slots-which I'm sure you know is easily achieved on any of the current Droids. Some alt kernels alter charging algorithms, but I digress(again) I'll patiently wait for you to answer my aforementioned question.

 

[Bushido Brown]

Quite frankly, you're missing out.

You're correct in saying there have been security measures in place on every HTC phone and they have become more and more robust. However, people don't say HTC is more open simply because they can flash CM; they say it because HTC releases their source code and drivers (huge), does not use RSA encryption, and does not explicitly denounce custom ROMs the way Moto has (actually, I believe there has been some evidence that HTC enjoys the modding community). These actions have led to users eventually gaining full control over their hardware, something X/2/Pro users will never have.

Finally someone who knows what they're talking about. Moto has released source code as well-to the "open source" portion of their software. Its not exactly the full disclosure that HTC gives, and I will concede that this is a pretty significant advantage. However, I'd like to note that you're the 1st person to have brought that up, everyone else is just beating me over the head about flashing roms, as if this is some exclusive advantage enjoyed by only HTC devices.

As far as CM, to be honest, I feel they're vastly overrated. Does the internal EMMC storage even work? EVO users only recently gained the ability to use WiMax. I just don't understand why people are so willing to just forfeit key features of their device just to use a hacked AOSP ROM. Then again, MIUI is an AOSP ROM as well, which I'm currently using. but MIUI is just so damned sexy, and actually adds quite a bit of functionality while being so(sexy)

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

Finally someone who knows what they're talking about. Moto has released source code as well-to the "open source" portion of their software. Its not exactly the full disclosure that HTC gives, and I will concede that this is a pretty significant advantage. However, I'd like to note that you're the 1st person to have brought that up, everyone else is just beating me over the head about flashing roms, as if this is some exclusive advantage enjoyed by only HTC devices.

As far as CM, to be honest, I feel they're vastly overrated. Does the internal EMMC storage even work? EVO users only recently gained the ability to use WiMax. I just don't understand why people are so willing to just forfeit key features of their device just to use a hacked AOSP ROM. Then again, MIUI is an AOSP ROM as well, which I'm currently using. but MIUI is just so damned sexy, and actually adds quite a bit of functionality while being so(sexy)

I will say this about Cyanogen. It's not a hacked AOSP ROM. It's built from the Google Source Code. From scratch. Using ONLY OPEN SOURCE CODE, which is why WIMAX wasn't included. Only closed source (read: proprietary) code was available for WIMAX.

Yes I read through the enitre thread. Everyone has made valid points. Do you know the history of the MIUI rom? Do you know where it came from and what it is? It's (basically) the English translation of the Chinese version of Cyanogen. I'm not saying they copied CM, but they went about building the ROM in the same way. From the source. Then they added some great UI improvements to it.

Now to the point of locked/unlocked/open/closed/hackable phones. Every ROM made for the DX so far has been based on Motorola's files and software. That's because of the encrypted bootloader. This is the direction that Motorola is going with all of their phones. They have publicly stated that they don't want people hacking their phones. So you can bet that they will work to fix any holes that hackers/devs find in the software to allow modifications.

Now on to HTC. They do lock the bootloader. When the DINC was released it took a little while to hack it. Look at how long it took to hack the Nexus 1, and that didn't even have a locked boot loader. Now look at the EVO. It had full root BEFORE it was released. Was it a painless method? No. But it worked. With the newer phones (G2 and myTouch 4G specifically, I know from experience) it's a little harder. But guess what? It still got cracked. I have a myTouch 4G with the ENG bootloader and S-OFF. So I can flash whatever I want. Any ROM/kernel that's made for my phone. Oh, and it can be anything ported to it. Like right now I'm running a Desire HD port because I want to. Maybe tomorrow I'll go back to Iced Glacier with Grankin's kernel. And the next day I'll go to CM7 (that's Gingerbread) and give that a try.

Why will I do that? Because I like choice. If you choose to go with Motorola, which I think makes great hardware and nice looking phones, just know what you're getting into. Same thing with HTC. Everyone has to get what works for them.

Oh, and none of this applies if you really don't care about hacking or rooting your phone anyway.

This is just my $.02. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[Bushido Brown]

I will say this about Cyanogen. It's not a hacked AOSP ROM. It's built from the Google Source Code. From scratch. Using ONLY OPEN SOURCE CODE, which is why WIMAX wasn't included. Only closed source (read: proprietary) code was available for WIMAX.

Its not? After all, AOSP = Android Open Source Project. We're basically saying the same thing, but not really. As far as MIUI is concerned, I'm aware that is also built from AOSP, which I mentioned in my post. I also wasn't confused about the exclusion of WiMax, but more so the Android communities unwavering affection for a ROM that completely 86s key components of your phone's hardware.

Overall, however, I agree with everything stated in your reply.

 

[Kevin OQuinn]

Its not? After all, AOSP = Android Open Source Project. We're basically saying the same thing, but not really. As far as MIUI is concerned, I'm aware that is also built from AOSP, which I mentioned in my post. I also wasn't confused about the exclusion of WiMax, but more so the Android communities unwavering affection for a ROM that completely 86s key components of your phone's hardware.

Overall, however, I agree with everything stated in your reply.

I guess the REAL big deal with Cyanogen is it's as close as pure Google as we can get on any phone except for the Nexus phones. That's why people like it. Is it PURE Google? No, but it's pretty close. They add a launcher (and maybe a few other apps, it's been a while since I ran it) and some extra settings, and of course a custom kernel. And a lot of people like the fact the the Cyanogen team only uses open source code, and doesn't take anything from HTC or other manufacturers to include in the ROM. So it's not like other ROM's that basically have Sense or Motoblur (or touchwiz) just stipped out to "streamline" the ROM.

If that all makes sense, that is. Sometimes I'm not that great and explaining my point or what I'm trying to say.

 

[karnovaran]

"Hacked" AOSP implies "combined unrelated parts with shoddy code" to me. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Spend a few minutes browsing this to get an idea of why CM is so popular:
Gerrit Code Review

The amount of developers working on it is astounding. Anything and everything is considered and added when stable. WiMax and 720p recording (on some devices) are the only functions that took a bit to incorporate as far as I remember. Conversely, they ADDED wireless N, FM radio, and 720p to phones like the Nexus One that never had those features from the manufacturer.

I understand Sense and MIUI are pretty and quite functional in their own right, but they are nowhere near as efficient and detailed as the work the CM team has created over the last two years. Think about it; there is no corporate marketing team behind CM yet it's the most popular ROM across several devices. How could that be due to hype alone?

 

[bkorver]

We've beat custom ROM's to death. Nobody has said anything about changing the splash screen and boot animation. That's what I enjoy... I've seen 1000's of DInc's and not one of them looks anything like mine. From splash to boot animation, to ROM, to kernel, to boot down animation, my phone is MINE. It's what I want on it, not what somebody else thinks I need.

 

[Bushido Brown]

"Hacked" AOSP implies "combined unrelated parts with shoddy code" to me. That couldn't be further from the truth.

Spend a few minutes browsing this to get an idea of why CM is so popular:
Gerrit Code Review

The amount of developers working on it is astounding. Anything and everything is considered and added when stable. WiMax and 720p recording (on some devices) are the only functions that took a bit to incorporate as far as I remember. Conversely, they ADDED wireless N, FM radio, and 720p to phones like the Nexus One that never had those features from the manufacturer.

I understand Sense and MIUI are pretty and quite functional in their own right, but they are nowhere near as efficient and detailed as the work the CM team has created over the last two years. Think about it; there is no corporate marketing team behind CM yet it's the most popular ROM across several devices. How could that be due to hype alone?

I don't know what you base efficiency off of, but MIUI is pretty solid. Also, if I'm not mistaken, it was in fact MIUI who solved the mystery of the FM radio on the N1, not CM. This is part of why I say they are overrated, because alot people (not necessarily you) seem to think that all hacks begin and end with them. I don't need a history lesson as my first Android device was a G1. Anyway, don't mind me. I'm just the inquisitive type. I have a habit of not just doing things because everyone else has already done them.

All of this may be a moot point anyway, since it was recently brought to my attention that the encryption that Moto used for their current crop of Droids was a TI technology. Nvidiia, to my understanding, does not employ such technology. So who knows...