Is it stealing?

[kentusmc]

It is not false advertising, and any argument that claims it is is false on its face. It is NOT limited. You can use as much data as you want to your heart's content. But you only pay for data use ON THE DEVICE. You do not pay for data use THROUGH the device as a hotspot.

It is simply because they are using unlimited to describe the data plan but limiting it. Period point blank their use of the word is incorrect, they have made their own definition which is misleading.

 

[ultravisitor]

If the problem is with the word "unlimited", then what should it be called?

 

[kentusmc]

If the problem is with the word "unlimited", then what should it be called?

No Cap Data Plan

 

[ultravisitor]

I think people would still be arguing semantics, though, because

cap:

a maximum limit, as one set by law or agreement on prices, wages, spending, etc., during a certain period of time; ceiling: a 9 percent cap on pay increases for this year.

Cap | Define Cap at Dictionary.com

By not allowing tethering, people would argue that a limit -- or cap -- is being put in place.

 

[wabyrd]

You're talking about two separate things. Yes, its the same connection. But the amount of data your computer uses is going to be far greater than that of your handset.

I think that depends on what you're using your phone and computer for. I stream music on my handset and in doing so use a large amount of data. I have tethered only to check school websites (blackboard/epic). That consumes a miniscule amount of data compared to what my streaming music uses. Should I really be charged an extra $20/month for the access on the ONE DAY/MONTH that I need it when I have to go out of town?

At the same time, there are those that may be tethering as their primary method of internet access. Yeah, they are probably using a lot more tether data than phone data (e.g., Micro$oft SP updates).

If the carriers aren't going to go for free unlimited tethering, perhaps it could be changed to unlimited data with free tethering up to 1GB (or some reasonable limit). There could be a premium service for those that tether as their primary access method and go beyond that limit. This would be great for the occasional user. I wouldn't have to pay $20 for one day's worth of access! As for those who use it as their primary access, an extra $20 is cheaper than adding a cable or DSL line to the house.

 

[ottscay]

Isn't rooting also a breach of contract?

No, as of when I signed mine it was simply a way to void the warranty. Can't say if they'd changed the ToS since.

 

[ottscay]

The carriers are calling it "data theft", so I believe stealing is applicable.

No. The carriers are calling it that for sociopolitical reasons. Stealing is a crime. Tethering without paying for it is breach of contract. Hacking onto their network without having a contract at all is stealing.

It may seem like a small difference to you, but it's an important legal distinction, as either can result in litigation, but only one can result in a criminal complaint.

If it can't result in a criminal complaint, it's not stealing. PERIOD.

Edit: But to those who keep trying to use word games or "personal ethos" to claim it's not breach of contract because Verizon calls it "all you can eat" - get over it. That's a marketing catch phrase with no standing what so ever. If you want to know what you are agreeing to when you sign up, read the ToS first. If you don't, then you're the one with the ethics problem by claiming that the company mislead you. If you sign a contract and don't read it you can't ***** later that the contract is unfair if the contract explicitly states the scope of their obligation to you.

 

[Johnly]

Hacking onto their network without having a contract at all is stealing

It's hacking their networks under certain conditions that makes it right, right?

 

[Droid800]

It is simply because they are using unlimited to describe the data plan but limiting it. Period point blank their use of the word is incorrect, they have made their own definition which is misleading.

You don't understand the use of the word unlimited. In the context it is used, it applies to the actual bytes used, NOT to the type of use itself. That is supported by the fact that there is a separate plan for tethering. They are NOT limiting your data usage; they ARE limiting how it is used. You are not paying for unlimited use on any device. You are ONLY paying for unlimited use on your smartphone.

Their use of the word isn't incorrect, your understanding of it is. I mean, for God's sake, it says it right in the contract that each and every Verizon smartphone customer signs.

"These features cannot be used to tether your device to laptops, personal computers or other devices for any purpose other than syncing of data; any other use is not permitted using these features."

Surfing the web on your phone or syncing email is not the same as on your laptop. On your laptop you consume more data, use the network for more time, and keep a consistent connection that your phone does not.

 

[DroidXcon]

You don't understand the use of the word unlimited. In the context it is used, it applies to the actual bytes used, NOT to the type of use itself. That is supported by the fact that there is a separate plan for tethering. They are NOT limiting your data usage; they ARE limiting how it is used. You are not paying for unlimited use on any device. You are ONLY paying for unlimited use on your smartphone.

Their use of the word isn't correct, your understanding of it is. I mean, for God's sake, it says it right in the contract that each and every Verizon smartphone customer signs.

"These features cannot be used to tether your device to laptops, personal computers or other devices for any purpose other than syncing of data; any other use is not permitted using these features."

Surfing the web on your phone or syncing email is not the same as on your laptop. On your laptop you consume more data, use the network for more time, and keep a consistent connection that your phone does not.

You sir are completely wrong,,,,i went to a buffet the other day and i paid 12.99 for all you can eat. So obviously i can eat for the rest of my life , because it says all you can eat.

 

[jdbower]

These threads are always amusing. A few points:

1. If you're a network admin and you think the traffic profile of a PC is the same as the traffic profile of a phone I weep for the future of IT in this country. As someone who's actually managed large-scale telecom networks I can say with absolute certainty that traffic profiles matter and a device that is designed to sip data because data coverage is unreliable will certainly behave differently from a device that assumes it's on a dedicated link and can suck down data like there's no tomorrow.

2. Theft of Service. Learn it, love it, live it. Are you getting a premium service without paying for it? If you get basic cable and buy a box that gets you premium channels that's also stealing, this is no different. Yes, I think cable is way too expensive and I think I should be able to get everything for $60/month. How do I rectify that? By disconnecting my cable and realizing that I CAN get everything for $10/month via NetFlix if I'm willing to be patient.

3. The buffet examples are close, but it's not bringing friends along with you it's packing a Hefty bag and loading up to take food home with you. It's all-you-can-eat, but only for one sitting just like it's unlimited data only for one device.

4. Whether or not YOU think it's illegal or immoral is irrelevant unless you can afford better lawyers than Verizon. I personally think it's immoral that the Porsche dealer just leaves those cars parked out front, but it doesn't mean I can take an extended test drive to work every so often.

A note to people who tether without paying - you're the reason Verizon will continue to pressure manufacturers to make it harder and harder to root their devices. Don't complain that this bootloader is locked or that rooting method no longer works.

A note to Verizon - entitled consumers will always try to steal tethering services and the odds that you can actually stop them are fairly small. Please consider going to $40 or even $50 a month across the board for data services and giving away tethering for free. It's also probably a much smaller PR hit than billing or prosecuting people who tether (especially those dumb enough to admit it in a public forum)... Of course, just detecting it and sending them a nasty note asking them to stop or you'll add the service to their account will also go a long way.

 

[RHChan84]

Thats like saying you have a car that can go 150mph but do you ever go that fast? Eventually you will get caught.

I usually have my Mifi with me and it works better then tethering in one aspect, I can still be on the phone and be online at the same time.

 

[judasmachine]

I think VZW just needs to be more honest about what it considers 'unlimited.' I don't mean to knock them for managing their network as they please, but come on. Let us know exactly what we are paying for in the first place. The best compromise in my eyes would be to have customizable plans. $30 to use my phone the way I want is great, but I only use maybe 200 minutes a month, but I draw anywhere from 1.5GB to 3GB of data a month. I don't tether, but wouldn't mind the option. So let me just pay for 200minutes, and about 6GB of data for a reasonable price, and I'll be a loyal customer.

 

[Droid800]

I think VZW just needs to be more honest about what it considers 'unlimited.' I don't mean to knock them for managing their network as they please, but come on. Let us know exactly what we are paying for in the first place. The best compromise in my eyes would be to have customizable plans. $30 to use my phone the way I want is great, but I only use maybe 200 minutes a month, but I draw anywhere from 1.5GB to 3GB of data a month. I don't tether, but wouldn't mind the option. So let me just pay for 200minutes, and about 6GB of data for a reasonable price, and I'll be a loyal customer.

They tell you point blank in the contract you sign. If you don't read it, that's your problem, not theirs. The mere availability of a separate tethering plan should tell you as a consumer that should be paying attention, that you're not paying for a plan that includes tethering without paying that extra fee.

 

[Droid800]

These threads are always amusing. A few points:

1. If you're a network admin and you think the traffic profile of a PC is the same as the traffic profile of a phone I weep for the future of IT in this country. As someone who's actually managed large-scale telecom networks I can say with absolute certainty that traffic profiles matter and a device that is designed to sip data because data coverage is unreliable will certainly behave differently from a device that assumes it's on a dedicated link and can suck down data like there's no tomorrow.

I don't get this line of thinking either. Are people really dense enough to think that data use on their smartphone is equivalent to data use on a laptop? One sips data at regular intervals, and never maintains a constant connection unless you're web-browsing or using a data intensive app. The other assumes its always connected and will always have some network process running in the background. The amount of data both use is not even comparable.

2. Theft of Service. Learn it, love it, live it. Are you getting a premium service without paying for it? If you get basic cable and buy a box that gets you premium channels that's also stealing, this is no different. Yes, I think cable is way too expensive and I think I should be able to get everything for $60/month. How do I rectify that? By disconnecting my cable and realizing that I CAN get everything for $10/month via NetFlix if I'm willing to be patient.

3. The buffet examples are close, but it's not bringing friends along with you it's packing a Hefty bag and loading up to take food home with you. It's all-you-can-eat, but only for one sitting just like it's unlimited data only for one device.

4. Whether or not YOU think it's illegal or immoral is irrelevant unless you can afford better lawyers than Verizon. I personally think it's immoral that the Porsche dealer just leaves those cars parked out front, but it doesn't mean I can take an extended test drive to work every so often.

A note to people who tether without paying - you're the reason Verizon will continue to pressure manufacturers to make it harder and harder to root their devices. Don't complain that this bootloader is locked or that rooting method no longer works.

A note to Verizon - entitled consumers will always try to steal tethering services and the odds that you can actually stop them are fairly small. Please consider going to $40 or even $50 a month across the board for data services and giving away tethering for free. It's also probably a much smaller PR hit than billing or prosecuting people who tether (especially those dumb enough to admit it in a public forum)... Of course, just detecting it and sending them a nasty note asking them to stop or you'll add the service to their account will also go a long way.

People that are doing this in violation of their contract should thank their lucky stars that Verizon doesn't just cancel their service outright with no questions asked. They would certainly be well within their rights.

I do agree, however, that Verizon should start offering a tethering option that's cheaper. Maybe 1 GB for $10 a month? Or just roll it into a slightly more expensive data plan specifically geared towards light data users.

 

[ottscay]

It's hacking their networks under certain conditions that makes it right, right?

First of all, it's breech of contract - I'm not defending people who tether without paying for it. But you aren't hacking into their network if you do it, you're already on their network legally. You are simply running an app that isn't authorized to perform a service they want to charge you for. Which indeed they can dump you over perfectly legally, but if they tried to have the cops of FBI deal with it they'd be laughed at, whereas if you were hacking onto their network without an contract law enforcement would happily get involved.

Tort law and criminal law are very different, for good reasons.

 

[mhans311]

People that are doing this in violation of their contract should thank their lucky stars that Verizon doesn't just cancel their service outright with no questions asked. They would certainly be well within their rights.

Yeah right. If anything, Verizon would just start charging more. They aren't going to cancel contracts of people that are paying them a lot of money every month. Greedy suckers.

 

[Johnly]

First of all, it's breech of contract - I'm not defending people who tether without paying for it. But you aren't hacking into their network if you do it, you're already on their network legally. You are simply running an app that isn't authorized to perform a service they want to charge you for. Which indeed they can dump you over perfectly legally, but if they tried to have the cops of FBI deal with it they'd be laughed at, whereas if you were hacking onto their network without an contract law enforcement would happily get involved.

Tort law and criminal law are very different, for good reasons.

So I just need to sign a contract honestly then I can proceed to break the terms as I see fit? Got ya

 

[RHChan84]

But on the other hand, how much does it cost for a carrier to maintain SMS..Pretty much nothing or little to nothing and they are charging us for it.

I think it's 2011 and carriers need to realize people use smartphones to tether. Include it in plans.

 

[Chrisy]

So I just need to sign a contract honestly then I can proceed to break the terms as I see fit? Got ya

If that's what you think will work for you, yes. If not, then don't. You make choices that work for you and let others do the same. How else could it be?

Or I suppose you could call VZW and report everyone that you know is tethering. That's your choice too.

Personally I don't get my panties in a bunch about it. Folks tethering is probably one of the problems I'm least concerned with. There are more important things that take up my time and energy.

But hey if this is your cause in life, by all means do something about it if it bothers you so. We're all under quite a few contracts in life I'm betting. Even everyday situations present these kinds of situations and choices. I'm quite sure even you don't abide to every contract you're under to a T. Cable, Amazon, whatever. You have no files without paying, not one song? You haven't eaten a grape at the grocery store and not bought the bag?

These threads, which are all over CrackBerry, usually have a hypocrite or two in them. But even if you do follow every contract and do what you think is right, making it your business or crusade to right the perceived wrongs of others is going to be an uphill pointless battle. You can be sure something you are doing right now, someone will find fault with. I can think of one.

My lease states that I have to get permission from the home owner via my realty company to paint. I didn't, my bedroom is blue this morning and I love it.

VZW was able to block the use of GPS. Can they not block the use of tethering also?